If Moussaoui should live, then what does that say about the value of life?

Moussaoui, perversely, escapes death.

If Moussaoui had been given the death sentence he would have said the same thing, "America, you lost - I won!". Only then, he would have been allowed to fulfill his destiny and die as a martyr like he so desperately wanted to. By keeping him as a prisoner in hellish conditions for the rest of his life, we deny him and others like him a key factor in their motivation. Terrorists don't mind dying for their cause, but I am sure they do mind wasting the rest of their lives away in jail for it.

Re: Moussaoui, perversely, escapes death.

No 1 - who cares whether some people consider him a martyr or not? Surely the punishment should fit the crime. Or does justice count for nothing? Justice demands his death. This is not a matter of personal vengeance, it is purely a matter of community justice.

No 2 - I would hardly put a modern US prison into the category of 'hellish conditions'. The Guantanamo inmates have some of the best food and conditions available anywhere in prisons.

Justic edemands his death. End of story.

Moussaoui 0, Justice 1

You are absolutely right. We have no justification for taking life, whether it be the unborn child in the womb or the mass killer. You read far too much into Romans 13 - God has always reserved the punishment of Death for Himself alone. Killing Moussaoui would be an act of vengeance, not justice, and vengeance is not ours, either. And if it will make you feel any better, Moussaoui wanted death, sought martyrdom. The jury has denied him that and in so doing has struck a blow against the senseless violence of Muslin fundamentalists. If you've ever been held against your will for even a day you'd understand the significance of a sentence of life imprisonment. Believe me, justice was served. Vengeance was not. Civilization wins. Moussaoui, and everything he stands for, loses.

Re: Moussaoui 0, Justice 1

That is until Moussaoui is released for 'good behaviour' and having been 'reformed' in a couple of deaceds - to go back on the street and kill again of course.

As a Bible pracher and teacher of many years I would adivse you to do a little more reading. I do not just rely on Romans 13 - but it is plainly enough. God made government his agent to deliver his vengeance. Your suggestion that man cannot deal punbishment or 'vengeance on God's behalf os plain not (and never has been) the biblical or historic teaching. For instance, when Jesus warned us against taking vengeance in the Serom on the Mount he was speaking of private vengeance. I do not suggest anyone does this. But he was obviously NOT referring to community punishment and justice. (It would be ridiculous to suggest, for instance, that the court 'turn the other cheek) He was spekaing of personal ethics not social ethics.

Once this becomes clear the punishment should PLAINLY fit the crime.

When Jesus stood before Pilate at the trial of trials' and Pilate informed he he had the right to take his life jesus had the opportunity to deny government that right once and for all time. He did not do so. In fact, he confirmed 'Pilate's right'. Instead of saying 'you do not have this right' instead he told him he only held the authority and right to take his life 'because it was given into your hands by my father above'. In other words you, as human euthority, are to assume the role of God's agent when it comes to delivering justice, even death.

History is against you. Chruch history is against you. Common sense is against you (otherwise how tdo you stop people having others killed from the prison cell???). Logice and the plain evidence from Jesus himself, too.

Anonymous unbiblical liberalism 0 Real Christianity 1

Re: Moussaoui 0, Justice 1

I doubt Moussaoui will ever see a parole board, let alone be released for "good behavior." I do not, however, believe he is beyond redemption, any more than you are. We have hundreds of people in our nation's prison system who have committed violent, senseless acts and very few of them ever leave under their own power. Moussaoui will most certainly die a prisoner of the United States.

As a just-retired corrections officer and current volunteer prison counselor I have spent many long hours with felons and Bibles, theirs and my own. I am always amazed at how, at first reading, prisoners are quick to find the violence of Scripture, particularly in the Old Testament. As one felon pointed out to me several years ago, after reading the Old Testament, "Man there's more blood in there than in 'Braveheart!'" But after more careful reading, I am just as amazed to see these hardened criminals find the love and forgiveness that the Bible holds, especially the New Testament, the "guidebook" for Christianity. If they're going to change, that's when it starts to happen. The anger and violence you espouse feeds their hatred; Christ's love and forgiveness astounds them, shames them.

I don't recall even insinuating that we "turn the other cheek" in my first response. But I do know that Christ expects, no, demands that we forgive the trespasses of others and to love our enemies. We can mete out a sentence of life in prison, knowing that God will judge, and still remain true to Christ's expectations. It's a "win-win" situation spiritually.

You say that history -- even church history -- is against me. That is ideal; history is a constant reminder of the things we've done wrong, screwed up, the many ways we've disappointed Christ. I'm certain he designed it that way in order to teach us something.

If you'd like some help in dealing with your anger, Peter, I recommend two books that I often loan to my felons. The first is "The Purpose-Driven® Life" by Rick Warren, an astounding book that helps readers (over 30 million thus far) discover their part in God's plan. The second is "When God Doesn't Answer Your Prayer" by Jerry Sittser. It's a very good way to come to grips with the fact that God often has different outcomes in mind than we do.

Come out of the bunker. Peter. Let the light shine on your face.

Re: Moussaoui 0, Justice 1

I am sorry dear friend but this is the same kind of claptrap 'sentimental' and romantic 'Christian' gibberish that has brought the modern church and the true gospel to its knees (in human terms).

You do not read what you want INTO Scripture, we have to read OUT of Scripture what is there whether we like it or not. The OT taught plainly the death penalty was not only right but the ONLY real way of society upholding the Sixth Commandment. I await to hear where you say the NT changed repealed this teaching. I have already shown you where the NT actually confirms it. You appear to prefer your own sentimental version to what the Bible actually says.

And for the record I have written extensively in my book the Virtual Church how Rick Warren and the seeker-sensitive church may be packed to the rafters with people, but has buyilt a 'church' that is nowhere biblically sanctioned at all. Warren also hired a New Age guru last year among many other things.

The churchb is not there for people's felt-needs' as Warren thinks. The church is there for people's real needs. The two are rarely the same thing.
Try reading Scriputre again, not those who have long deaprted from obeying it.

Re: Moussaoui 0, Justice 1

I will pray for you, Peter, and ask God to be more merciful to you than you have been to others. And I will pray for Zacarias Moussaoui, just as I pray for the thousands of people killed on September 11, and the hundreds of thousands of people killed in Afghanistan and Iraq. There will always be too many killers to judge, and too many victims to mourn, but never too many of either to pray for. I will look for your book, The Virtual Church. And I'm sorry that our Bibles read so differently.

Re: Moussaoui 0, Justice 1

Thanks for stopping by

1. Thanks for your prayers - I am a sinner, I need them.

2. I am in fact personally merciful to others (oddly enough). That is not the issue here. The issue is whether the community not we as individuals should allow killers or any who commit crimes against the community to avoid God's vengeance - which He gave into the hands of government to act in his capacity as agents. Otherwise, what IS government for?

3. I don't know why you are praying for the thousands killed on 9/11 - they are all dead and their judgment is already fixed and unchangeable. The Bible warns us against praying for the dead.

I have no doubt you are sincere in your appraoch to biblical issues but you really must be better informed by what God actually says than be sentimental about what you 'think' he has said.

Peter,

Must link to your post this to ATW later - I am beseiged by those who fail to understand why the death penalty is the RIGHT and MORAL judgement on this Islamofascist.

The death penal;ty is a biblical doctrine.

For a more extensive apologetic for the retention of the death penalty by all Godly societies see my book 'The Politics of Faith'. It really is time we sorted out the mushy Christian brigade with some soldi Bible teaching. Try also Hon Stott - an Anglican theologian who was once a pacifist until he came to grasp the Bible teaching on the issue and on captial punishment.

Peter,

As expected your post has caused a lot of comment. You should sort some of the mushy liberals out. Tell 'em I sent you!!

DV

Thanks for that David...just what I need another day sorting out enfeebled ranters and Christians who don't read or understand their Bible.

Zacarias Moussaoui

Moussaoui will also become a hero in the American Penal System. The Penal System is loaded with and has been given permission by the US State Dept to be ministered to by the Wahabi Muslims. It has become their largest recruiting ground here in the US. This man should have never had a criminal trial. He should have treated as an Enemy Combatent.

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God requires the death penalty

In His instructions to Israel the Lord clearly stated that blood shed in murder defiled the land and the land could only be cleansed by the blood of the murderer. The one guilty of manslaughter could find sanctuary in a city of refuge, but to pardon a murderer or to receive payment from him in recompense for blood shed is likewise to defile the land.
To my mind, the greatest evidence of repentance is the acknowledgement by the wrongdoer is the acknowledgement of guilt and the justice of the consequences.
Bill Brown